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Old 12-18-2007, 05:33 AM
WingedPaladin WingedPaladin est déconnecté
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It seems to me Daheshists understand that the Holy Ghost was not Jesus' father and that Mary wasn't a virgin in the sense believed by mainstream Christianity. I agree with this. However, did Dr. Dahesh mention anything concerning the identity of Jesus' father?
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Old 12-18-2007, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by WingedPaladin View Post
It seems to me Daheshists understand that the Holy Ghost was not Jesus' father and that Mary wasn't a virgin in the sense believed by mainstream Christianity. I agree with this. However, did Dr. Dahesh mention anything concerning the identity of Jesus' father?
On Page 29 of "Memoirs of Jesus of Nazareth" (English Edition, whose content was crossed-checked with the Arabic Edition) we see these words:

(The old man, speaking to Jesus) "May I ask whether your parents are still alive?"

(Jesus replies)
"Certainly, you may. My earthly father is called Joseph; he is a carpenter well known in the city of Nazareth, and my mother's name is Mary.

They live with my brothers Jacob, Joses, Simon, and Judas, and my sisters Fadiah and Daniah."

Firstly, we see he had a brother name "Judas." No indication in the book if it is the "Judas" who betrayed him.

Secondly, we see that Jesus refers to Joseph as his "earthly father."

On page 28, and in reply to the question: "Who sent you? And for what purpose?" Jesus replies:

"I was sent by my Heavenly Father to abolish an old covenant and establish a new one upon its ruins"

It is clear from this book that Jesus considers GOD his Heavenly Father and Joseph his earthly one.

Note he makes a distinction between "Heavenly" and "earthly" (F)fathers.

Note also that he does not apply a similar qualifier to "mother." In other words, there is no mention of a "Heavenly" mother. Mary is simply his "mother."

Before we proceed with this analysis, we should remember that in the context of GOD's ability to do anything, Jesus Christ most certainly could have appeared out of thin air, and he could have been literally conceived by the "Holy Spirit" as Joseph saw the "Angel of the Lord" tell him in a "dream" (as we read on page 89) and we will get back to that issue a litte later.

In the meantime, why was Jesus forced to spend 9 months "developing" in Mary's womb? Why didn't GOD Almighty, the creator of all things, simply made Jesus Christ appear out of thin air?

We know that Jesus himself said that he had to be conceived of two human parents like everyone else on Planet Earth. Perhaps that was the only way to "inflict" upon Jesus Christ the ultimate handicap: To make him human and subject to what any other human feels and battles on the inside as well as on the outside.

And, following this logic (and dare we say "wisdom"), if he is (and he was) able to defeat worldly temptations using only his will as a human being, then and only then could he be (and he was) worthy of meriting all that he merited.

What we must therefore focus on is not how Jesus was conceived. Rather, that he was here and he was able to accomplish certain deeds and, yes, of course, being God's messenger, he was the conduit for many amazing Miracles. But we must remember that no Miracle could have saved Jesus from Temptation... Only he could have. That is what he is our "Lord Jesus Christ" and deserves the respect and reverence.

However, and as we also see on page 86 of
Strange Stories and Wondrous Tales, book #3, he is not GOD. He himself says that we must come back to our senses and that GOD is His Creator as well as ours.

You might remember we made a reference to
"The Dream landing on People's Earth" from Strange Stories and Wondrous Tales, book #1, (published in 1979). In that story written on June 24, 1954 at 6 p.m. (and for which we need some time to analyze further before we bring it to you) we see a reference to an "Angel" acting (if you will) as the proverbial shuttle service for the special main Spiritual Fluid (which has been
"enhanced" up with some rather impressive "accessories" in the form of spiritual fluids from entities such as BEETHOVEN) enter the body of the baby at the very last moment—as the baby was coming out of the womb.

Here is what we think: Jesus Christ is not like any other human being, despite the fact that he was human. The "Holy Spirit" most certainly did enter his human body upon exiting the womb.

But what is "a body" anyway? It is a symphony of an mind boggling number of energy waves... all working in harmony (sometimes disharmony).

Jesus was most certainly imbibed with the Holy Spirit.

How exactly?

Some might never know. But does it matter?

Please hold that thought...

On the "inside"—and wherever that "inside" happens to be (assuming that we are indeed mere "projections" and that what we feel as being "real" is in fact a "dream" — perhaps more real than those we experience when we sleep, but a dream nevertheless) he might have been conceived by the "Holy Spirit". But even the "Holy Spirit" (following the logic that Jesus had to have a human component to merit all that he needed to merit) who, "himself" is the creation of God, and who had a duty to perform, needed a human vessel who would been the host and vehicle for "Him" (when He, the Holy Spirit, needed to perform Miracles and convey Prophecy)

And that does not mean that the vessel—or more specifically, Jesus— works for the "Holy Spirit."

Let's ponder this other important concept/theory based on observing the interaction between "Brother Ali" and "Doctor Dahesh": The Holy Spirit is here to protect and serve the Prophet. And in the case of the incident when Doctor Dahesh pushed the limits of his own body and ended up in a near-coma from a sunstroke (read Salim Ombargi's book) to remind him that he can and cannot do. Even the best pilots need good navigators.

Yes, The Holy Spirit may channel "himself" through the Prophet and seem at times like a proverbial "puppet master" but it is more subtle and complex than that. And any such privileges and powers granted to the "Holy Spirit" should not be misinterpreted as a reflection of his spiritual degree compared to that of Jesus Christ.

Let's look at a modern analogy: We know that the Queen of England has people around her who remind her of what she has to do on a particular day, whom she has to meet with, what the rules of Protocol are as far as the Monarchy... Things are such that it is no longer about the Queen herself, about about preserving the integrity of the Monarchy and what it represents to people who look up to it and draw pride from it, and are inspired by it.

One could argue that the Queen is actually serving the Monarchy and the people. But, she is STILL the Queen and her advisers and the people show her proper respect. And, she, in order to maintain her status of Queen, cannot commit certain acts... Now, imagine this interesting balance working on the level of a Prophet and the Holy Spirit.

Everyone is accountable.

Now, let's get back to this issue of "What does it matter?"

We did not just pull this from a hat. It is written in black and white.

Imagine Mary and Joseph arguing about their son, Jesus.

Leading to this argument, according to the book, his brothers were upset with him. Joses and Judas lash out and say

"How long must we bear insults and persecutions by the people of our village because of you?
You there, haven't you raved enough?
Will you not give up your false mission and vain fabrications?"


....

"Make haste and leave this town."

....Then his brother Simon burst out:

"We repeat this warning for the last time. Should you heed and accept it, you can remain with us, for you are one of us...If not, there is enough room in God's vast land for your Mission. We've had enough of the persecutions that befall us every day on account of you."

....

Meanwhile Jesus' two young sisters were shedding "hot tears" (They clearly were on his side, but, felt helpless and could do nothing for him)

Now, we come to Mary's position...

My mother at times backed my brothers, and at other times, sided with me.

She is a mother...

she does not want to see her children quarrel — that is why she acted this way. But when she no longer knew what to do, she turned to my earthly father Joseph and said:

"Why are you silent? Why do you say nothing?"

He replied, sadly:

"In truth, I am confused, and I know not what to say! You know the reasons better than I do."

"And you don't you know them too?"

"No! No, not as well as you do."

"Wouldn't you talk with your son?"

"He is the son of Heaven, not my son."

"No, he is your son."

"He is the gift of Heaven to us and to all. He is not of this Earth, and the teachings of one who is not this Earth no doubt are celestial. So, how can I stop him since he is Messenger of Guidance?"

"Forgive me, Joseph, when I say that I do not believe in him, for his speech is extremely strange."

"As for myself, I do believe in his words and in his teachings."

And here, Joseph, defends Jesus by citing all that which he is calling for (Virtue, Sanctity, and Worship).

Joseph ultimately says:

"Isn't this absolute proof that his not human?"


Mary replies

"If it is as you say, he would not have come the human way."

Ah...

Now, check out Joseph's answer:

"How can you say that? Don't you remember when the Angel of the Lord came to me in a dream and said:

'Do not be afraid, Joseph, for your wife was conceived by the Holy Spirit.'?"


Ah... So Joseph and Mary were married when "his wife" (and according to the dream) became pregnant with Jesus.

OK, in this book, Joseph sees a dream in which he Angel tells him that the Holy Spirit was responsible for Mary becoming pregnant.

Obviously, Joseph was afraid. Why? We (for the time being) do not know.
He obviously felt that he couldn't have been the reason for making his WIFE pregnant.

Let us not forget what Doctor Dahesh also said before Mario Henri Chakkour: "Even though science has not yet discovered it, but a woman does not need a man to make a baby..."

And before everyone says "Aha, but it says here, on page 89, 'conceived by the Holy Spirit.'"

Yes, but it was in a DREAM.

Dreams are not always literal.

Do we truly believe that the "Angel of the Lord" is going to explain the complexity of what truly has happened? We're talking... 12 A.D.!

We still tell children that they were brought to Earth by Storks!

And, we HAVE to consider what Doctor Dahesh wrote in Strange Stories and Wondrous Tales, book #3.

Now, back to our episode...

Mary replies...

"Indeed, I do remember that, and I am still perplexed by it, for to this very hour I cannot explain this strange enigma."

Jesus then says

"In vain you try to solve this mystery, Mother.
So, stop probing and know that I am not of your world.
I am the Messenger of Heaven to the Earth. He who holds everything in His hand sent me from a blissful place of everlasting splendor to save the people of your world.

The fact of my presence among you, not the matter of forming me, is the reality you should be concerned with.

For no matter how much you or others strive to attain such knowledge, you will not succeed until my second coming to this Earth following my departure.

At that time, the truth will be revealed to those who must know it, each according to his merit."


That being said, we don't claim to know anything beyond what we have reported.

All we do know is that, in Strange Stories and Wondrous Tales, book #3, Jesus was upset that people believe he sprang from the Holy Spirit. And he does not want us to believe he is God.

It is clear from this book that it is our duty not believe in those things.

Why? Because it diminishes Jesus' greatest achievement: having truly lived all that he preached.

Jesus earned, at great cost and sacrifice, the deep reverence we owe him—not as our creator, but as our savior.

That's all that matters.





Last edited by Daheshville; 12-19-2007 at 12:50 PM. Reason: Typos and correcting the credit for "Indeed, I do remember that..."
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  #73  
Old 12-19-2007, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Daheshville View Post

That being said, we don't claim to know anything beyond what we have reported.

All we do know is that, in Strange Stories and Wondrous Tales, book #3, Jesus was upset that people believe he sprang from the Holy Spirit. And he does not want us to believe he is God.

It is clear from this book that it is our duty not to believe in those things.

Why? Because it diminishes Jesus' greatest achievement: having truly lived all that he preached.

Jesus earned, at great cost and sacrifice, the deep reverence we owe him—not as our creator, but as our savior.

That's all that matters.

"There is the Official Catholic Doctrine" as it evolved

"The Blessed Virgin Mary": explained in "Luke 1:26-38"

1:26. And in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God into a city of Galilee, called Nazareth,

1:27. To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David: and the virgin's name was Mary.

1:28. And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

1:29. Who having heard, was troubled at his saying and thought with herself what manner of salutation this should be.

1:30. And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God.

1:31. Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb and shalt bring forth a son: and thou shalt call his name Jesus.

1:32. He shall be great and shall be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father: and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever.

1:33. And of his kingdom there shall be no end.

1:34. And Mary said to the angel: How shall this be done, because I know not man?

1:35. And the angel answering, said to her: The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

1:36. And behold thy cousin Elizabeth, she also hath conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her that is called barren.

1:37. Because no word shall be impossible with God.

1:38. And Mary said: Behold the handmaid of the Lord: be it done to me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

HOWEVER:

Source: The Virgin Mary is No Wonder Woman (More likely the truth got to dramatized)

by John Shelby Spong

Link to Complete Article: http://www.religion-online.org/showa...asp?title=2296

Partial Article: Mary's pilgrimage into western mythology was a slow one. She is never mentioned in all the writings of the Apostle Paul, the earliest creator of material that came to be included in the New Testament. Paul, who wrote between 49-64 C.E., had no interest in Jesus' origins. His only references to Jesus' family came when he said that Jesus was "born of a woman, born under the law." He asserted that "according to the flesh," Jesus was descended from the House of David. Paul also made reference to Jesus' brother, a man named James. No divine origin here, no miraculous birth, no virgin mother.

The pattern was continued in Mark, the earliest Gospel, written between 70-75 C.E. or 40 to 45 years after the earthly life of Jesus came to an end. Once more there is no story here of a miraculous birth. There are, however, two references to Jesus' mother, but neither is flattering. She appears in this first Gospel to be embarrassed by Jesus, to think him "beside himself" and Mark says that she went with Jesus' four brothers, James, Joseph, Judas and Simon, and his two sisters to "take Jesus away" [see Mark 3 and 6]. That is hardly the behavior one would expect from a woman who had been visited by an angel and who had been told that she was to be the Virgin Mother of the Son of God.

The Virgin story entered the Christian tradition in the early 9th decade gospel of Matthew, some 55 years after the death of Jesus. It was repeated in the late 9th or early 10th decade gospel of Luke, and then it disappeared in favor of the concept of Jesus' divine pre-existence in the 10th decade Gospel of John. The mythology of Mary, however, was destined to expand in the development of Christian history.

By the early years of the 2nd century the idea of the Virgin as the ideal woman began to grow. First, it was said of her that she was a virgin mother. Next, she became a permanent virgin, making it necessary to transform the biblically mentioned brothers and sisters of Jesus into half-siblings or cousins. Next the church fathers claimed for her the status of being a postpartum virgin which caused the hierarchy of the church to go through intellectual gymnastics to prove that the hymen of the Virgin Mary had not been ruptured even during Jesus' birth. Tales circulated that perhaps Jesus was born out of his mother's ear! Then someone found a text in Ezekiel [see Chapter 44:1] which suggested that when "the gates of the city were closed only the Lord could go in and out." Without either shame or apology that verse, written about 800 years before the birth of Jesus, was said to demonstrate that Jesus could be born without disturbing the gates of his mother's womb.

But then there is in Wikipedia a reference to an Islamic perspective of the birth being "Virgin" but Jesus and Mary not being "Devine": This seems to mesh with Dr Dahesh's perspective.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic...of_Virgin_Mary

Very much in agreement to what Mario said, I would like to summarize it like this:

The most important issue was not how he was born, but how he lived. An even more important issue was that he was willing to die for what he believed. Whether it only appeared that he died on a cross or he actually died on a cross.

He grew from an infant into a man. He lived in dangerous times and took a bold stand when few were willing to do so. Instead of urging his supporters to defend him, he told them to stand aside. He alone faced his accusers.
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  #74  
Old 12-25-2007, 11:02 AM
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Here a Muslim scholar explains his view in relation to the Christian idea of the Trinity and backs it up both with the Bible and the Quran: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4o04ekisDpc His view as a Muslim seems to be in harmony with Daheshist views.
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Old 12-16-2010, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mario View Post
Darrick,

Well, first of all, Mary, in the book, did not ask Jesus. It was Jesus who interrupted Joseph's and Mary's argument by interjecting that she will never be able to figure out that mystery or that riddle..........



......The mystery consisted of the fact that Jesus was conceived like any other human being but it was that (perhaps) Joseph's seed (which carries the DNA) was spiritually reprogrammed to allow a being from a higher world to enter Earth's dimension.

?
http://www.splendidsun.com/wp/atomism/

I can very well imagine Orson Pratt framing the matter the way you did here, Mario, and apparently the way Jesus may have been framing the matter. Brigham chewed Orson's posterior over it in part because Orson departed from the talk about 'intelligences' to Orson's thoughts about the Holy Spirit as a spiritual fluid that is, shall we say, "networked" and "distributed" throughout the universe.
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Old 12-17-2010, 08:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zionic View Post
http://www.splendidsun.com/wp/atomism/

I can very well imagine Orson Pratt framing the matter the way you did here, Mario, and apparently the way Jesus may have been framing the matter. Brigham chewed Orson's posterior over it in part because Orson departed from the talk about 'intelligences' to Orson's thoughts about the Holy Spirit as a spiritual fluid that is, shall we say, "networked" and "distributed" throughout the universe.
Thank you Alan...
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