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Old 06-06-2011, 03:58 PM
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Default Laws Based on Divine Justice or Not

Three of the major religions agree that Divine Justice should be the basis for their laws. Unfortunately, these same religions or cultures have spent centuries interpreting Divine Justice. If in a Western Nation dominated by Christians, Divine justice is interpreted one way. If in Israel, a slightly different interpretation is used. If in a Muslim nation, again Divine justice is interpreted differently. Their differences separate them all and make it difficult to cooperate.

Even reading only a small part of the writings of Taha J. al Alwani, I get the picture that Muslim justice is the result of ongoing interpretation of not only what the laws should be, but also how they should be administered. In Western society, it is no different. But the result appears to me to be very different.

It is my perception that a major difference is that Western law also includes legal influence of law established in the societies of Ancient Greece and Rome. The legal preferences were influenced by multiple religious beliefs, some Monotheistic, some Polytheistic and some Pagan. In reality, these are the laws as defined by men. Although it could be said that the men were affected by Divine influence.

I think it is time that we may need to again revisit the concept of negotiating a new legal order that could be accepted universally. It is likely that some will feel this is an infringement on individual rights, especially if one is an atheist. But I think negotiating requires reasonable concessions where needed. The integration of the world, so close geographically when considering jet travel, the internet, television and film, yet so separate culturally as affected by religion, is important to the well being of commerce and industry. Both commerce and industry are essential to the well being of all nations. Essential, because they provide needed materials, improve education, have the potential of unleashing new resources, intellectual and physical.

The United Nations or possibly some newly formed organization, might spend some of its' time wrestling with debate over "a perfect legal" order. But are there other ways of resolving differences between conflicting cultures?
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Old 06-07-2011, 10:10 AM
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The legal preferences were influenced by multiple religious beliefs, some Monotheistic, some Polytheistic and some Pagan. In reality, these are the laws as defined by men. Although it could be said that the men were affected by Divine influence.
Good point. And what if the Greek gods were an allegory for Spiritual Fluids? Incidentally, the Greeks did develop an atomic theory.
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Old 06-07-2011, 03:10 PM
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My knowledge of Greek Gods could barely fill a thimble. And much of my education in Greek Culture flew over my head. But I did come to understand that Greek philosophers broke new ground in modern thinking. Original Greek Law was minimal and some thought barbaric. But over time, Greece developed tort, family, public and procedural law. Maybe the best thing was that Greece was not influenced by distortions from the past.

I think, as a consequence, Greek thinkers progressed in many areas. Maybe, from a vacuum, many Greek originators where open to consider all of the external influences and unlimited possibilities. http://www.ancientgreece.com/s/Mythology/ They had over thirty gods, although some were considered major and some minor. Are there that many spiritual fluids? But, only some of the gods correlated to what might be perceived as spiritual fluids. The rest were considered either good or evil with superhuman traits. And many of their gods had human characteristics that people could identify with. They quarreled and fought, deceived, made love and portrayed every human characteristic.

Could the gods have been allegories for humanity and thus reason for laws?
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Old 06-07-2011, 03:43 PM
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Default Who/what came first?

According to some references I found, the Greeks only began developing sophisticated laws around 900BC after exiting the "Dark Ages". I really don't know the beginning of Jewish law, but Moses, was credited with being the Law Giver. He was thought to have lived around 1300 to 1200BC. Could it have been that a society had to grow to some size to necessitate laws? Or is it the level of complexity that determines the need for laws.

Prior to that, each person might have possessed some sense of fairness that alleviated conflict. I have read that other primates, today, seem to possess a sense of fairness when dealing with others in their group. Maybe as group size grows, so does conflict. It is conflict, in my mind, that necessitates laws. Fortunately for men, we have the ability to reason out laws to guide us in our interaction with others

Justice does not need to be maintained by laws if every person has an appropriate sense of fairness. Unfortunately, in a larger, more complex society, a sense of fairness seems to be lost when the burden in interacting with others becomes unmanageable.
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Old 06-08-2011, 12:48 PM
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Maybe the best thing was that Greece was not influenced by distortions from the past.
Perhaps not by distortions. But I think they were influenced by Baalbek. If the story of Baalbek is true (that it was built by aliens long before the Phoenicians even), then it would be safe to say that the Greeks were inspired by the wealth of architectural styles. Although they weren't able to build arches, they pretty much figured out how to adapt/replicate some of the rest — at a smaller scale.

Greek classical architecture — as we were all taught in architecture school — reflected their philosophical beliefs about aesthetics. Or, was it the other way around? In other words, if Baalbek predated the Greeks, then they were certainly dumbfounded when they first saw it. Something must have "clicked." A Spiritual Fluid, if you prefer, entered the arena. Baalbek, perhaps, was the forerunner. When the two met, perhaps the Greeks were inspired (by what must have surely appeared to have been built by "the gods") towards deeper philosophical introspection.

Under this hypothesis, Baalbek might have given rise to the first true "philosophers," namely the Greeks, who set the stage for Westerners to eventually build upon the work that was started by the pre-Ottoman-ruled Arabs, who were building upon what they were giving in the Koran.

"The West" wasn't always "civilized." In fact, back "in the day," it was the Arabs who were considered to be the advanced civilization. But, for some reason, that whole region merited what I consider to be a curse thrown upon it. Which then led to invasion upon invasion and subsequent colonization and that whole business that happened in 1948... namely because, I must reiterate here, the infamy perpetrated against God's returned messenger.

SIDE NOTE: If you've just joined us and were wondering what the Daheshist take on GOD is: we don't know what the true nature/makeup/shape/form/etc. of GOD is. We believe that GOD created our perceived universe and its physical laws — all of which constitute a sub-sub-sub(keep adding)...set of GOD's otherwise unimaginable scale.

In other words, and on any good day, and on average (and we would need to discuss that statement at length in another thread), GOD has no direct hand in whatever happens to us, being that the system in which we exist is self-governing. In fact, sure, Stephen Hawking might be right when he says that the universe didn't need GOD to be created. Why would it if GOD created a perfectly self-contained, self-sufficient, self-REBOOTING system?

And, incidentally, why are we here? Simply stated: We are "here" because of our deeds (thoughts and actions) from different lifetimes (with the knowledge that "space-time" is an illusion and a by-product of being human). In other words, Man is physiologically incapable of visualizing or seeing what GOD is, let alone understanding GOD or expressing GOD in a "theory of everything."

For all we know, GOD is "everything," of which we are part.

Therefore, we are, potentially, able to rejoin GOD at a higher plane of existence and shed our material limitations.

Until such time, and being that "everything" is so much bigger than us, why not just resign ourselves to accepting our limitations?

I say this because GOD likes it when Man genuinely glorifies his Creator. Hence, sometimes, GOD *does* get involved and *Miracles* do take place.

But, really, the problem has always been RELIGIOUS LEADERS and their excesses in the name of GOD.

But why blame GOD for the excesses of religions and the crimes of Man?

Instead, one should stand for reform and change and never, ever, insult GOD.

If indeed whatever is happening to me is the result of mind-boggling levels of interactions that occurred in this and other lifetimes, then the sooner I make peace with GOD the better, especially if humanity lets me down, despite my best efforts to find justice.

And if doing one's best, in terms of obtaining justice using human channels is met with failure, then we should remember Romans 12:19 :

"
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but [rather] give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance [is] mine; I will repay, saith the Lord."



Quote:
Originally Posted by Seul Loup View Post
Are there that many spiritual fluids?
Just on the basis that — for example — in Daheshism, we talk about the [Spiritual] Fluids of greed, jealousy, anger, gluttony, (hence, those that tend to be on the lowly side), and (conversely) that of kindness, art, music, scientific discovery etc. (and all the "shades" within), my guess is that there are too many Fluids to count. Also, Amira Zahid once told me that Brother Ali said to her that — to him — the Fluids appeared as brightly color-coded light tracks. Think ultra high tech train traffic control (if we were to reduce the system to a 2 dimensional scale). And that's how He could keep track of things.
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Old 06-19-2011, 02:31 PM
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Default Audacity of Hope

I think the larger point is that today there needs to be a recovery specifically of the revealed concept of Islamic justice. Why? Not the least because it is the body of thought that led to the classical republicanism, Scottish Enlightenment thinking and the federal framework upon which the US Constitution is based.

Ronald Reagan happens to have been the last truly 'republican' president we've had here in the USA. To this day people are unaware of his thirst for justice and of the sense that the inheritance of Americans has been stolen. Reagan's 'city on a hill' (hint hint hint) is what you get when concepts of justice and inheritance are brought back into the American consciousness.

There was a time when the Islamic, Christian and Jewish streams fruitfully combined in a cooperative manner to birth the 'Maqasid Al Sharia' that the US Constitution is ultimately based upon:Islamic Spain under the Fatimids. The Arab Spring and the European Square 'democracies' that are rising up may in spirit be a recovery of the Andalusian Spirit.

Hope springs eternal.
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